Footnote to the Aragorn quiz

[inzilbeth]

One of the things Estelcontar and I ended up discussing as a result of this quiz was the question of whether or not Aragorn [or the Dunedain in general] could understand the speech of the beasts and the birds.

We decided that the only refernce to this that we knew of was this one from chapter 9 'At the sign of the Prancing Pony': 

They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of  beasts and birds.

We decided that was not the same as saying they COULD understand the languages of the beasts. Then  Estelcontar sent me this passage from Return of the Shadow:

...As the evening deepened Trotter began to tell them tales to keep their minds from fear. He knew much lore concerning wild animals, and claimed to speak some of their languages; and he had strange stories to tell of their lives and little known adventures.... 

So from Trotter's own mouth we find he claimed to have this ability. I wonder what strange tales he had to tell and wouldn't it have been wonderful if we had got to hear them!

Comments

[shirebound]

Ooooh, that makes me think of all the movie scenes where he's communicating with Brego.

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I hadn't thought of that! I love all those scenes. And thanks for the pic - definitely great communication going on there!

[cairistiona7.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, that opens up a whole new Aspect of Aragorn... methinks you need an additional chapter. *grin*

Hmm, I almost feel like I should go back and adjust my stories to reflect this, but I won't. But I do think I'll work a bit of that into future tales. Very very interesting!

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Isn't it! There are little hints like when he says things like not all the birds can be trusted which suggest he can understand them.

And oh drats, we'll have to write some more stories! What a shame!

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Well the Men of Bree obviously believed they had this ability and if they did, then this might have been a trait they developed during the glory days in Numenor, or the rangers might have picked up the skill in the same way Beren did when he wondered alone in those years following the deaths of the Outlaws. There's no way of knowing unfortunately.

As to the Trotter reference, I know there is a view that HOME isn't canon but, surely if Tolkien wrote it that's all that matters.

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

I guess if you qualified it by providing those quotes you would be OK. Check out Passolargo's comment though. While I tend to view anything the prof wrote as gospel, if there's a conflict, I go with the later version or if [as in the case of Galadriel] that blows too much of the accepted text out of the water, then I go with the view that most ties in.

Yes, you really can't distinguish between the Silmarilion and HOME when in comes claiming canon, as the problem of the final version of Galadriel's tale demonstrates.

[cairistiona7.livejournal.com]

Isn't it! There are little hints like when he says things like not all the birds can be trusted which suggest he can understand them.

I had always figured he meant that some birds were under the spell (or whatever you would call it) of Sauron and not exactly real birds, or if they were real birds, he wouldn't know exactly what they were saying, etc. But in this light, it does put a completely different spin on that comment, doesn't it?

And oh drats, we'll have to write some more stories! What a shame!

I know I'm rubbing my hands with a maniacal grin. *maniacal grin*

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

I don't think we know exactly what motivated Sauron's spies, whether they were naturally drawn to his evil because they were evil themselves or whether they were somehow held in his power, be it by terror or something else. Probably both. Gosh, this is too complicated a discussion for me this late at night! I'll have to give this some thought.

It'll sure be fun thinking how to write all this believably though!

[cairistiona7.livejournal.com]

It'll sure be fun thinking how to write all this believably though!

Very fun, yes... and it will be hard to work it into his character because we didn't see much of it in LOTR, and of course, none of it in the movies except for the way, as Shirebound has pointed out, they portrayed him working with horses. But I do think it can be done. :)

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

I'd love to see your take on it!

[estelcontar1.livejournal.com]

Jul. 3rd, 2009 01:57 am (UTC)
Well, but we must remember that Tolkien deleted this bit from FOTR, and there is no hint from Aragorn at Weathertop that he can understand the language of animals. So, I believe that most certainly what Tolkien meant by the passage from chapter 9 that Inzilbeth quoted is that the Rangers were so skilled in living and surviving in the wild that people believed them to be able to understand the languages of the wild animals. He never mentioned that they did, and since he was most precise with his language I don't believe he meant that that the Rangers of the North (and the passage refers especifically to them, not to the Dúnedain or the Númenóreans in general. There is never any hint, for example, that the Rangers of Ithilien understood the language of animals) did really understand the language of the beasts. But even if they did, that would have been something they learned, like Beren did, from their close communion with animals in the wild, and not a hereditary gift from the highly urbane inhabitants of Númenór.

As for the tales Trotter was going to tell we can't have them because Tolkien never wrote them, but we can know what they were going to be about: Here is Son Christopher's last note on "The Attack On Weathertop" (HOME, The Return Of The Shadow, ch. VI, p. 188), the chapter in which Trotter's quote about the language of the animals is to be found.

"My father's practice at this time of overwriting his first pencilled drafts largely denies the possibility of seeing the earliest forms of the narrative. Int his chapter the underlying text can only be made out here and there and with great difficulty; but at least it can be seen that the opening passage quickly declined into an abbreviated outline for the story. Trotter's tales were only to be concerned with animals of the wild." ...So, originally Trotter would not mention Lúthien. But Tolkien changed his mind immediately and didn't even wrote the animals stories, and Trotter recited to Bingo (i.e. Frodo), Odo, Frodo (which is not our Frodo) and Merry, the tale of Beren and Lúthien.

The second mention of Trotter's ability to understand the language of animals comes from the same book. It's found on the second draft of the attack on Weathertop, "To Weathertop And Rivendenll (The Return of The Shadow, ch. XXI, p. 358).

"...As night fell and the light of the fire began to shine out brightly, Trotter began to tell them tales to keep their minds from fear. He new much lore concerning wild animals, and understood something of their languages; and he had strange tales to tell of their hidden lives and little known adventures. He knew also many histories and legends of the ancient days, of hobbits when the Shire was still unexplored....." So, here not Trotter, but Tolkien mentions that Trotter knew, something of wild animals languages, which is already not the same thing as speaking the language of wild animals.

After this draft Trotter is changed from the hobbit in wooden shoes into Aragorn, Son of Arathorn, and Tolkien drops this bit from all the subsequent drafts of the chapter.

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Thanks for all that. What we don't know is whether Tolkien was a rejecting the idea of the communication or whether he simply came up with a better idea for the tales that Trotter would tell. Talking to animals, as he say in 'On Faerie Stories' is one of those qualities that we all seem to enjoy. I wonder if he thought it was a little too extreme a thing to include directly so left in just this rather vague mention of the idea. When I'm not late for work, I might come back on this. There's also the question of whether or not Elves could really talk to trees that we were also discussing [and deciding they couldn't!]

[estelcontar1.livejournal.com]

Well, since Trotter tells the Tale of Tinúvel already in the first draft, and Tolkien still mentions the idea of communicating with animals, in a slightly modified way, in the second draft of the chapter, when he says of Trotter that he could understand some of the language of animals, I'd say he was rejecting the idea of direct communication. I could see Tolkien hinting at the idea of the Arnorian rangers, due to the close communion they kept with animals in the wild, coming, as he says of Trotter in the second draft, to have some understanding of their language(much in the same way and for the same reasons that the elves understood the language of living things and even of stones in his universe). In his indirect mention of it in that quote from ch. 9, Tolkien most certainly manages to hint at this possibility, without fully commiting himself, given that he attributes it to characters in the book. I'm pretty sure though, that he most certainly dropped, maybe because as you said he thought it a little too radical, the idea of direct communication between Aragorn, or the Nortern Rangers and wild animals.

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

'I'm pretty sure though, that he most certainly dropped, maybe because as you said he thought it a little too radical, the idea of direct communication between Aragorn, or the Nortern Rangers and wild animals.'

That ultimately has to be my view too, Passolargo, but I still like the idea of writing a fic about Aragorn chatting to some unlikely creature whilst alone out in the wilds!

[estelcontar1.livejournal.com]

....and I would love reading it. *grin*

[lindahoyland.livejournal.com]

And I'd love reading it too!

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Gosh, thanks! Now that I'm freed from writing 'A of A' it is a new and rather nice feeling to think I can just write anything I want as the mood takes me.

[silivren-tinu.livejournal.com]

I wonder what strange tales he had to tell and wouldn't it have been wonderful if we had got to hear them!

I so wish we had got to hear them! I love the idea that the Dunedain might have been able to understand the speech of the beasts and the birds! I was always fascinated by Radagast because he had that ability (I wish we would have heard more about him, too).

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Yes, Radagast is one of those characters, like Cirdan, who has been around a long time and there is probably much to say about them but they only get a brief mention in LOTR.

Actually, your bringing up Radagast has got me thinking some more on this. I wonder if it is likely the Men would share this ability if it's specifically given to a Maia. There's no right or wrong answer to any of this but it is fun to speculate.

[silivren-tinu.livejournal.com]

There's no right or wrong answer to any of this but it is fun to speculate.

It really is! :)

I wonder if it is likely the Men would share this ability if it's specifically given to a Maia.

That's an interesting aspect. Now that I've been thinking on it for a while, I also believe it might get boring pretty soon if too many people had such an ability - all of the Dunedain in addition to the Maiar and the elves would probably be a bit too many. *g* But I still like the idea that perhaps Aragorn has a certain affinity to at least some animals. It actually makes me wonder if Peter Jackson ever thought about that and if the Brego-Aragorn scenes were inspired by it.

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Yes, its almost as if it's one of those vague ideas that half sticks in the mind. Of course Shadowfax may well have been the influence there too but they were great scenes all the same and I'm glad there were included.

[estelcontar1.livejournal.com]

It think they most certainly had that in mind. I'm sure PJ and Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens (who apparently was indeed a fan before she got involved in the project) did their lesson, and read the HOME LOTR books. Many of the ideas they hinted at the movies may be found in the four HOME LOTR books. I remember hearing Viggo Mortensen say in one of his live interviews, promoting FOTR, and describing Aragorn that Aragorn could understand the language of the birds and the beasts, and at the time going............"whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat he really did his homework, didn't he?" LOL Since he said he only read the books after getting the role, I'm sure idea came from the script writers.
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