Aragorn vs Denethor

[inzilbeth]

In any number of books about LotR, Tom Shippey's 'Author of the Century' is the first to spring to mind, it is likely that the similarities and contrasts between Theoden and Denethor will be discussed. The main points usually being: they were both elderly rulers; they both lost their son and heir in battle; they both succumbed to despair. How they both dealt with that despair of course marks their differences. All this is perfectly reasonable except that the, to my mind, far more interesting and significant contrast, that between Aragorn and Denethor, I have never seen discussed in print anywhere.

I had begun to wonder if I was completely wrong in my view, so imagine how pleased I was when a few days ago I discovered that a friend I chat with, a long time LotR fan, agreed with me on every point! 

In fact the similarities between Aragorn and Denethor I would almost call laboured. They are the same age, born within a year of each other; they are both of pure Numenorean descent; their facial features are remarkably similar, as Pippin observed. Denethor is described as 'more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin...' Appendix A RotK.  There can be no doubt as to the similarities between these two men.

But the one major difference between them, pride, proved to be critical. Denethor had it in abundance, to the point where he trusted no one unless they were  under his command and control. Aragorn, as we all know, was humble and prepared to put his trust in others, even those seemingly weak and ineffectual. We see the greatest differences between them when the chips are down. Denethor lost all hope of victory and so in despair he gave up, deciding to take the life of not only himself but also that of his surviving son. Aragorn in contrast, not only saved Faramir and countless others, but selflessly put his life, his hopes, his dreams to one side to do everything he possibly could to achieve victory [he's not our hero for nothing that guy!]. Of course in Denthor's defence, he was poorly used by Sauron who exploited his weaknesses.

In effect the two men were mirror-images of each other or opposite sides of the same coin, if you like. They could each have been the other but for this one trait, which it must be said, is a major Middle-earth sin. And so we have Denethor representing many of the undesirable traits in a ruler and Aragorn  all the good ones. Surely this is a major Tolkien theme and I am surprised I have yet to come across an in depth discussion of this in any book. [Unless of course some one can put me right on this!]

One thing I do find particularly interesting, is the passage in UT regarding Denethor's use of the palantir. Here we learn that he first looked into the stone in order to spy on Thorongil, thus making Aragorn an unwitting agent in Denethor's subsequent downfall.

Comments

[lissas-elves.livejournal.com]

A very interesting comparison! And you are so right about the danger of pride; it changed the history of Middle-earth many a time(let's not even think about Túrin)

I think I've seen a discussion about the similarities and differences of Aragorn and Denethor somewhere - let me see if I can remember where and maybe locate it for you.

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Thanks and I wasn't even thinking about Turin at all, but yes, you could write a book about him alone and the devastating effects of his pride!

[meckinock.livejournal.com]

Yup, totally agree with pride being the critical difference there; and you put it beautifully. I have a hard time being too judgmental of Denethor because in Tolkien's world he was created as a counterpoint to Aragorn - it's sort of a chicken and egg issue, but as a created character he lacked the free will to alter his fate. He was who Tolkien created him to be. And he did have a lot of good qualities, I think.

If you're interested, telperion1 put together a nice synthesis of references to Denethor

Edit: oh, I almost forgot I did a little analysis of Aragorn and Denethor a while back too, if you're interested
http://meckinock.livejournal.com/87491.html#cutid1

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the very intersting links and the comments. Gosh meckinock, you do write with such flare!
Denethor really was a victim of circumstance in many ways but I think the quote you give [along the lines of] if he can't have what he wants, he will have 'naught' is very telling and actually quite sad. He is incapable of doing anything differently by the time. He really is sacrificed.

I must tell you I so enjoy your interpretation of him in 'Truce'! You build him into such a sympathetic character and those conversations with Turgon are priceless. I do hope you finish the tale sometime!

[lindahoyland.livejournal.com]

I too am fascinated by the similarities between Aragorn and Denethor and agree with the points you have made.
A friend of mine ponders if the Valar meant Aragorn and Denethor to work together,but his pride got in the way.I think Tolkien,as a devout Catholic explores the sins of pride and despair very well in Denethor.
I see Denethor almost as Aragorn's shadow side.
I believe that Faramir turns out as what Denethor ought to have been.
You might find this essay interesting.
http://telperion-fic.livejournal.com/46269.html#cutid2

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad you agree with me here and thank you for the link. That is a most interesting essay.

Yes, its as if poor Denethor has been lumbered with two of the worst 'sins' in Middle-earth. That's a very interesting thought about Faramir and I'm sure you're right [I've not going to disagree with you where Faramir is concerned LOL!]. It only makes him even more tragic though. Certainly if he had been able to work with Thorongil, who knows how the history of Middle-earth might have turned out.

I don't really consider the 'what if' scenerios that much, but I remember I did feel a little disappointed when I first read LotR and discovered there was no showdown between Aragorn and Denethor. Its pretty clear though that Denethor's reaction would have been quite different from Faramir's.

[galantha-nivala.livejournal.com]

Hello, Inzilbeth. This is Lalaeth from the LotR discussion group. I have a horrible habit of playing devil's advocate. I hope that's ok.

You make a good point; I hadn't thought of comparing Aragorn with Denethor.

Denethor suffered from too much pride, but to be fair, we only see him at the end of his life when he had almost given in to despair. How many people could hold things together as well as he did and as long as he could under the circumstances? Loss of a son and heir, leader of a country facing tens of thousands of foes bent upon annihilation. Most people would crack if faced with a single one of these situations.

Aragorn was both humble and wise in trusting others to play their parts although it would seem that he didn't have much of a choice.

He never really put aside his main ambition, which was to become the King of Arnor and Gondor so that he could marry Arwen. It just happened that, thanks to Elrond (with a bit of foresight, perhaps?), Aragorn's ambitions depended upon defeating Sauron. He knew the war was not over with the victory at Pelenor Fields; that was just the second battle in a wider war. Riding to the Black Gate was bold and intelligent, but it was something that had to be done to buy Frodo more time to reach Mount Doom.

Feel free to throw tomatoes at me if you disagree. :)

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Hi Lalaeth, thanks for coming on board and please feel free to play devil's advocate all you want. With me at the helm there's a real danger this LJ could become some sort of Aragorn 'love-in site' so some other points of view are most welcome! However you might need to learn to duck quickly to avoid all those flying tomatoes LOL!

'Free will' is very important in Tolkien's world and both Aragorn and Denethor had plenty of scope to exercise it. Aragorn had lots of choices. He could easily have taken the ring and justified it to himself when he saw how irresponsibily the hobbits behaved in Bree. But he didn't; he trusted Gandalf's judgement. When he finally made it to Minas Tirith, he could have taken the crown there and then and tried to ride out the storm like Denethor did. But he didn't. He chose to ride to the Black Gate. It was the sensible option for Middle-earth as a whole but an extremely self sacrificing one for those who actually went.

As to Denethor, he undoubtly had more than his share of problems. Losing his wife so young and then his eldest son, as well as living with Sauron on his doorstep for most of his life would indeed be challenging for anyone. But as Aragorn pointed out to Boromir at the Council of Elrond, the fight against Mordor was not Gondor's alone. Aragorn too had fought Sauron all his life and without any of the status or physical luxuries that Denethor as Steward had enjoyed. He spent decades ensuring the scorn and derision of people like Bill Ferny. For a man born to be a king, how hard was that? And all the while denied what must men take for granted; the right to marry the woman he loved.If anyone could become bitter over the hand dealt to him it would be Aragorn. But he didn't. He kept hope in his heart and he retained his humanity throughout.

Gosh, I have gone on rather. Now I've probably put you off posting here ever again!

[estelcontar1.livejournal.com]

Hello, Inzilbeth, that was beautifully put. I couldn't agree with you more.

Lalaeth you have a good point there about what Denethor suffered, "and that pride increased together with despair" (Rotk Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion). But the point is that it increased. Denethor was always proud and for him the greater good always would have to include himself in the position of utmost power. Hence his rivalry with Thorongil.

You're also right in that Aragorn never put aside his main ambition to became King of the United Kingdom and marry Arwen. But he would never sacrifice public good for his sole personal ambition. You never see him in the entire book coveting the Ring, now, do you do? When he was Thorongil in Gondor, popular as he was, if he were the type of man to put his personal ambition in front of everything else, he would have tried to claim the throne there and then, and risk civil war. He didn't. In Tolkien's own words "...in the hour of victory he passed out to the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron" (Appendix A 'The Story of Aragorn & Arwen")

Yes, Aragorn's ambition depended on defeating Sauron, but so did Middle-earth's well being in a way. And when he and the few who followed him went to the Morannon they didn't really expect to come back. Their hope was too slender. They went because they had to, expecting almost certain death, because it was the only chance they saw for Gondor and the free lands, even if ultimately, they did not survive the gambit.

Ambition in itself is not a bad thing as isn't a certain modicum of pride. But self-centered, overweening pride and ambition are. Too my mind that's what separates Aragorn from Denethor.

Sorry, Inzilbeth. Here am I babbling again and on your live journal too. I am indeed hopeless.

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

You know I love your babbling so carry on as much as you like!

It's very interesting that Thorongil didn't try to claim the crown when everything was going his way. With the loyalty of the army and Ecthelion's affection, is must have been very tempting. I think civil war would have been a likely outcome even if he won the endorsement of Ecthelion. And Sauron would certainly have turned all his attention and forces on Gondor if Isildur's Heir had revealed himself. It's impossible to know either, just how much Aragorn's ambition changed once he was betrothed. I wonder if he went around for years kicking himself for not grabbing the crown while he had the chance.

And yes, I quite agree, pride was always strong in Denethor. He is Numenorean after all, and pride was a major factor in their downfall. Of course Aragorn had three huge advantages over Denethor. One, he was raised by Elrond, two, he had Gandalf as an advisor amd three, he had the blood of Luthien in his veins. All of which I'm sure contributed enormously to making him the man he was.

Now I'm babbling. Thanks for your contribution.

[cairistiona7.livejournal.com]

Whew, that's very very interesting and I feel like I barely know enough yet about Tolkien to really comment intelligently... but then when has that ever stopped me before? LOL So, take this for what it's worth from someone who's not read and studied Tolkien for as long as the rest of you:

I've always seen Denethor as weak rather than evil. I do wonder sometimes if pride isn't often a false front erected to conceal insecurity that one is not willing to confront in oneself. If that's the case with Denethor, that to me could be the crux in the difference between the two characters: Aragorn seemed able to confront the insecurities he felt about himself (thinking of the way he questions his ability to make the right choices after Gandalf's fall, for example) and overcome them. Denethor, however, seems not to have possessed that ability and instead cloaked himself in pride. And of course, the whole bit with the palantir and Sauron plays into that. I get the idea, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Sauron was an expert in delving out the weakness in the minds of those he desired under his control, and in Denethor, he found a fertile field of insecurity to manipulate and corrupt. And I hope that makes some sort of sense!

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

Well for someone who hasn't studied Tolkien for long, that's a very original and I think valid point! Denethor must have been insecure to have felt threatened by Thorongil in the first place. He should have just known that his father would always love him more than this stranger, just as he had no real reason to be threatened by a popular captain [except of course that he did!].

And yes, that's exactly who Sauron works. He exploits existing weaknesses and unfortunately he did a good job on Denethor.

[estelcontar1.livejournal.com]

I don't think Aragorn ever regreted not claiming the Crown when he had the opportunity because he knew that by doing so, he would be playing into Sauron's hand, and making Middle-earth's chance of freeing itself from Sauron even slenderer than it already was. And I think that as much as he loved Arwen, he would never endanger the common good, or stray from the path which he considered his duty to follow in order to gratify his own desires. I Don't think Aragorn had one jot of selfishness in him. After all, as you mentioned, he was raised by Elrond and had Gandalf as a mentor and advisor.

Cairistiona, you have a very good point in there indeed.

[inzilbeth-liz.livejournal.com]

There is no suggestion of course in canon that he ever even considered claiming the crown at that time. For all we know, the thought might never have entered his head. Certainly I think it would have been disasterous for him to do so then. And I couldn't agree more, Arwen or no Arwen, he always put his duty first and was completely selfless.

I love your icon! Not bad for a computer moron!

[estelcontar1.livejournal.com]

Well, when it comes to Aragorn, we are indeed very likely minded.

Did you mean today's icon, or yesterday's. I didn't make either of them. Yesterday's was made by chiffonwings, and, unfortunately, I don't know who the author of today's is. It was one of the first icons I ever found, around three ago, and I can't even remember where I found it, but I loved it so much, I've kept it since then. Believe me, I am truly a computer moron.